Under discussion: The weekend’s football championship action and controversies
Chatting were: John Fogarty, Tony Leen, Brendan O’Brien, Dara Ó Cinnéide, Daragh Ó Conchúir, Fintan O’Toole.
Tony Leen, Irish Examiner sports editor: Tell me, what constitutes a square ball in 2011? I remember a time when the rule was that if you were inside the square before the ball, you were infringing. There seems to be a few tweaks since. Can anyone clarify?
John Fogarty, Irish Examiner GAA correspondent: It’s the GAA’s version of the offside rule – only more complicated. How the referee or the umpires could call the Meath ‘goal’ spot-on I don’t know. The video evidence isn’t even conclusive although it leans slightly more towards Graham Geraghty.
Dara Ó Cinnéide, All-Ireland winning Irish Examiner columnist: I don’t have the rule book in front of me but I always thought that once you were outside the small parallelogram and the ball entered the airspace above it, you could follow it in. Also thought Kieran O’Leary’s ‘goal’ for Kerry on Saturday was perfectly legitimate.
Tony Leen: Which is essentially the same rule as before! Who called that square ball yesterday? Was it the umps or did Sly Doyle come in and tell them to disallow the goal. And doesn’t that raise all the old issues of relatives and friends in white coats..
Brendan O’Brien, Irish Examiner staff writer: It’s a clear case of the rule being an ass. It’s impossible to enforce to any degree of certainty. It looked like the ref dictated the decision yesterday. That young lad looked like a schoolkid getting a lecture.
John Fogarty: That Doyle’s son was one of the umpires in question gives it another dynamic. Do you shout your father down when he is under the spotlight? It appeared one of the umpires felt the goal was good and the other didn’t with Doyle backing the umpire who argued against it.
Tony Leen: This might have a case of completely proper and relevant conversation between a ref and his officials — good communication even — but if a father is ‘talking’ to a son behind the goal, the optics don’t look good.
Brendan O’Brien: There isn’t even a mention of the umpires in a match programme. When something like this happens, journalists have to go scrambling around for their identities. Not good.
John Fogarty: Then you have a terrace behind you who aren’t exactly telling you to give Geraghty the benefit of the doubt. You’ve got to have sympathy for the officials.
Daragh Ó Conchúir, Kildare-based sportswriter: The GAA missed a chance when not getting rid of the square ball rule last year. It was brought in to protect goalies from execution and so has no role in the modern game other than to create confusion. It’s stopping a fair contest
John Fogarty: Didn’t Enda McEvoy make the point recently that the main criteria for being an umpire is knowing the referee well? It’s a moot point but again how could any of us make that call when it’s not even proven by the TV camera. The GAA’s Geoff Hurst moment.
Dara Ó Cinneide: I think it’s irrelevant who the umpire was. Syl Doyle’s young fella called it right and and he had the best view. I don’t think a referee should be over-ruling in a situation like that unless there’s uncertainty amongst the two best placed to judge. Umpires are running scared after the Benny Coulter and Joe Sheridan goal incidents last season.
Brendan O’Brien: Scrap the square ball rule and appoint umpires for senior championship games centrally. What’s so hard about that?
Tony Leen: The young fella made the right decision. My point is would an independent umpire stand over his decision more if he wasn’t the ref’s son! Anyway. Trevor Giles didn’t spare Meath and Brendan O’Brien didn’t spare Laois in today’s Examiner. Which of the defeated sides at Croke Park yesterday is in better shape going into the qualifiers?
Daragh Ó Conchúir: I would say Meath are. Laois were dreadful. They tried but only for Eoin Culliton, would have been absolutely blitzed.
Brendan O’Brien: Splitting hairs but I would say Meath. I agree with Daragh, you name it Laois lacked it yesterday.
John Fogarty: On the basis of the manager who actually had the carraigs to talk to the press afterwards, it’s Meath. Credit to Banty on that one. Why Justin McNulty, a motivational speaker, didn’t see fit to address questions from the press is ridiculous, to be honest. Meath will put something together providing they get a handy draw next Sunday. I’d be fearful of Laois given the lack of audacity in their play yesterday.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: Meath are. This was actually Laois’ second game. You could see the likes of Stephen Bray huffing and puffing early on yesterday. He will improve, as will Graham Reilly. It’s a bit worrying for Meath though, that the lack of genuine pace in the forwards is still their main issue.
Daragh Ó Conchúir: Meath were only three points down with five or six minutes to go and that game was played at a vastly superior pace and intensity to the second one. Nobody will be dying to play them. I can’t imagine anyone soiling themselves at the prospect of Laois but then they might show more ambition against other teams
John Fogarty: Meath still have fantastic finishers in the likes of Shane O’Rourke. Stephen Bray will be more of a threat when fit and Graham Reilly won’t be as bad again or find a marker as sticky as Emmet Bolton in the qualifiers. It’s interesting to bring up both Meath and Laois from the point of view that they both dropped players from the named teams beforehand — Cian Ward for Meath and MJ Tierney for Laois. Free-takers extraordinaire but you can’t live on frees alone these days and the form of both had been questionable going into the game.
Brendan O’Brien: The most interesting performance from Laois was MJ Tierney. He didn’t even play but it will be interesting to see if his tweet about being “disillusioned” catches on. It would make for great copy if it did!
John Fogarty: People in Armagh will say McNulty is too defensive in his approach and they cite him as one of the reasons why Dublin beat Armagh last year. I agree with McNulty in the sense new managers have to build from the back and he has gained Laois promotion but there’s something almost robotic about them. There’s no flourish.
Brendan O’Brien: Building from the back is right, but they were carved open by the Dubs and Donegal had similar joy in the Division Two league final. Worrying.
Daragh Ó Conchúir: All I would say in McNulty’s defence is you won’t get a job as big as what needs to be done in Laois completed in a few months. I remember Kidlare fans calling for McGeeney’s head in 2008 after losing to Wicklow. Mindsets, attitudes have to be changed, a new manager has to learn the job and has to learn about the group he has. I’d say there’d be little truck with sulking anyway
John Fogarty: In a Twitter exchange with Conor Mortimer, Tierney explained he didn’t know why he didn’t start yesterday. In fairness, he got the crooked finger from McNulty early doors in the Division 2 final and the win over Longford.
Tony Leen: Will Dublin v Kildare be a sellout, even in these straitened times? Hardly I’d say.
John Fogarty: No sell-out but 60,000 would be a fine crowd for that double-header. The first game will bring in a big number given the four teams left on that side of the draw all fancy getting to the final.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: I have a serious issue with this tweeting from inter-county players entering the public domain. I accept that once it’s out there it’s publishable, but the players should really keep their thoughts to themselves. That should always be a panel’s strength- their secrecy. Omerta, even if it isn’t much use to us in the media. The two spheres have irreconcilable prerogatives and players are crossing the line with their tweeting.
John Fogarty: But it’s the first time, Dara. What’s been put up by players before yesterday has been guff.
Daragh Ó Conchúir: Yeah, but does it surprise you John that it’s come from Laois? It wouldn’t have come from Kerry, Dublin, Kildare or Tyrone.
John Fogarty: Ah, it could have come from a number of counties. It comes down to the individual, not the county.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: Most of it is guff anyway but players discussing issues from within the camp is a line that shold NEVER be crossed.
John Fogarty: Yes, there’s a code that shouldn’t be breached, but you can be sure there’ll be hundreds of words about Tierney’s one word yesterday.
Tony Leen: If you are the manager, you are always annoyed when someone goes off half-cocked with a comment tossed into the public domain. However it has become the players’ preferred method of comment across all codes across the world. The only way you get something interesting out of a GAA player nowadays is 1) if you know him very well, 2) if he’s getting an endorsement fee from someone to talk or 3) if he’s been paid directly for the interview.
John Fogarty: There may be a fourth. Nigel Crawford wanted to get a lot off his chest following the Leinster final last year — and he did. It didn’t matter who the journalist was — all he wanted was a medium. That is a rare phenomenon, all the same.
Brendan O’Brien: There’s a fifth. Drunken tweeting. It’s only a matter of time. Tweeting is as easy as texting now and that’s got a fair few lads in trouble in the past!
Tony Leen: Realistically everyone, what’s Kildare’s ceiling in Championship 2011. Can they survive to September?
John Fogarty: Not if they keep shooting wides in the high teens. Kieran McGeeney is delighted they’re kicking as many towards the posts but that’s 35 now in two games. Great to see Mikey Conway on the bench for Kildare yesterday. They’ve Darryl Flynn to come back in now as well but you can’t see McGeeney moving Doyle away from his new central position when he’s getting so much purchase there.
Fintan O’Toole, Irish Examiner staff GAA writer: Kildare need silverware. For all the progress they’ve made under McGeeney, four years in, there has to be an end product.
Daragh Ó Conchúir: They would need to improve. They would certainly need Daryl Flynn back, and Fionn Dowling as an attacking option. Rob Kelly’s fitness would help too, while there are encouraging reports about Mikey Conway although he must still be well off championship pace having not played for almost two years. I just think Dermot Earley’s loss in particular, along with of Peter Kelly, will be crucial come August. However, I could see them winning a Leinster.
John Fogarty: I’d fear for Kildare if they don’t win the Delaney Cup. McGeeney has no goods to show for all his toil.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: They can go places because they’re honest but James Kavanagh needs to go up the gears and they will probably need Doyle inside before the year is out.
Tony Leen: And before we move onto the All-Ireland champions, what about the All-Ireland champions in waiting....de Dubs. Oppressively dominant yesterday.
Brendan O’Brien: All that Laois game did was give Dublin the chance to exorcise their league final demons. Nothing else. In fact, the five sides with the shortest odds for Sam were playing at the weekend and what did we really learn about any of them that we didn’t know already?
John Fogarty: Dublin chugged yesterday, blowing out the dirty diesel. There was never any doubt about the result. What will worry Gilroy is how bad they start second halves. Kildare seem to come into their own after the break. Dublin almost need the other team to kick on before they wake up.
Daragh Ó Conchúir: But Dublin always fly out of the traps. They were so comfortable yesterday. I don’t think they were out of second gear, maybe third. There was no pace in that game. To win by eight points strolling is good enough and I’d say Gilroy is delighted they didn’t win by 20. I’m sure McGeeney was praying for it.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: Dublin weren’t dominant at midfield. Barry Cahill won’t do in the centre and Bastic isn’t the answer either. Good showing by James McCarthy but Ger Brennan is still vulnerable and Kevin McManamon needs to bring league form of last two seasons into the Championship. We’ve yet to see if he can do that. Cluxton’s kickouts were sussed too. When that happens, they struggle. For all that Connolly and two Brogans will take stopping.
John Fogarty: Then Paul Griffin and David Henry have to come back into it. Yesterday was the time for Gilroy to experiment. He doesn’t have that luxury against Kildare.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: Ross McConnell and Eoghan O’Gara look more likely to feature later on. I think McConnell and McAuley are their best options at midfield. Would like to see O Gara tried at 11.
Tony Leen: On the Sunday Game last night, the old imbalance in the provinces debate was re-pumped and floated. One other Munster county (Clare in 1992) has won the provincial football title in 75 years. What, if any, is the solution here?
Fintan O’Toole: Interesting to see Dessie Dolan tweeting on this subject yesterday, calling for Champions League style system to be introduced. Certainly there wasn’t much learnt in Pairc Ui Chaoimh or Gaelic Grounds at the weekend.
Brendan O’Brien: The only fair solution is to scrap the entire championship and start again (which won’t happen), but other things can be done. Limerick and Waterford were playing their first games in eight weeks against two of the country’s top sides who had either one or two games already under their belts. That’s just plain wrong and unfair.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: Tipperary to make the breakthrough in about 6-8 years. No point in trying to resurrect the Champions League format, it’ll never be acceptable to too many people in power. Had Limerick, Louth and Monaghan won their provincial titles along with Roscommon last year, nobody would be too bothered about the format. Wouldn’t get hung up on the imbalances but would really like to see a more compressed campaign with no more than two weeks between games.
John Fogarty: Seeding the draw – ie, keeping Kerry and Cork on different sides — was a bad move by the Munster Council. Ensuring it’s an open draw is the only thing that can be done for the moment. Interestingly, the provinces refused to budge on reducing ticket prices because of commitments to coaches. If counties outside of Kerry and Cork continue to deteriorate, Croke Park will have to start asking questions. Tipperary seem the best place to challenge the duopoly but not for another couple of years with Evans staying at the helm.
Fintan O’Toole: The scheduling is crazy. Both Cork and Kerry have played two games in two weeks, and now have a four week break to Munster final and then there’s a four week break for the winners of that game after that.
John Fogarty: If it wasn’t Kerry and Cork in the final, you’d worry about promotion for the final given there’s so much of a break. Munster teams have won the last two All-Irelands but almost in spite of their province and their scheduling.
Tony Leen: It’ll be a saucy build up – as long as players agree to talk!
Dara Ó Cinnéide: I think the players should talk but they don’t have to. Isn’t that half the craic- the anticipation, the surmising, the speculation. Players don’t have an awful lot to add to the mix. They will be in “head down, play ball” mode for next few weeks.
John Fogarty: Kerry and Cork sells itself this year but I’m not sure everybody will be careful not to upset the other before Killarney.
Tony Leen: There’ll be a nice bit of edge to this one. Trophy is less important that psychological oneupmanship. Cork can put down a marker but they’ll do well not to come in under-cooked after two poor prep games. Honestly — and don’t accuse me of cute Kerrywhatever here — people are getting completely carried away by Saturday night in Limerick. It was like a bad training session, marking non existent, no pressure on the ball...
John Fogarty: Anyone who saw how loose Limerick were on Saturday night knows it was almost an inconsequential game in Munster final terms. The four-week gap makes certain of that. Eoin Brosnan will have Paddy Kelly too focus on and won’t be attacking as he did on Saturday. Having said that, the Kerry inter-play bodes well. They showed and offered so much support to one another.
Fintan O’Toole: Well the attacking play was certainly an improvement on the opening-half against Tipperary when they looked disjointed.
Dara Ó Cinnéide: Both sides have enough experienced players on board and don’t get hung up on what’s said in papers, be it positive or negative. I really don’t get this idea that players scan the pages to see what opposition are saying. Saturday night was a challenge match and even Limerick backs like McCarthy and Lavin (who have carried the fight in the past) looked demoralised early on. Nobody is even talking about Saturday at this stage. It’s irrelevant.
John Fogarty: It’s all so predictable at the minute. Kerry and Cork Munster final, Dublin and Kildare progressing. The Leitrim and Armagh wins took people by surprise but nothing has stood out apart from them. Tyrone were always going to find Monaghan a mite difficult. Monaghan weren’t as bad as their league campaign made them out to be.
Tony Leen: At least Tyrone had a decent grind in the rain against Monaghan. A Tyrone-Donegal Ulster semi (presuming the latter overcome Cavan) has a tasty look to it. Tyrone to be feared?
John Fogarty: You know Harte won’t have Tyrone fully motoring yet. Stephen O’Neill needed a performance like yesterday. His class is unquestionable but injuries and bad form dogged him in the league.
Brendan O’Brien: Big shout out to Stephen O’Neill for THAT point with the pick-up and dummy. I reckon he could have up to five scores in my personal GAA top ten of all time.
John Fogarty: Monaghan’s ugly side came out again yesterday, although Dick Clerkin was unlucky to be sent to the line. Dessie Mone has been like that for quite some time.
Brendan O’Brien: Before we go, one mention for the Westmeath hurlers who probably gave the performance of the weekend against Galway.
Source: http://feeds.examiner.ie/~r/iesportsblog/~3/RU-eG7F86-Y/post.aspx
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